Subject: ARM Linux history

From: Chris Rutter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:39:41 +0100 (BST)

I'm trying to compile some sort of history of Linux/ARM, and thus seeking
answers to questions like:

  - What was the very early history of the kernel?
  - When did binutils and gcc start supporting ARM-based formats?
  - Where did the first C library with ARM support come from?
  - (Tangentially) what other Unices ran on ARM before Linux?  (I count,
    I think, NetBSD/arm32, Minix, RISCiX?)

(Yes, I know there's some story on Russell's site, but it seems apocryphal.)

Anyone who fances a pint (or just some thanks) please drop me the answers
to any of these.  Oh, yeah; and a credit in an article.

c.

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From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:00:07 +0100 (BST)

>   - When did binutils and gcc start supporting ARM-based formats?

See my site.

>   - Where did the first C library with ARM support come from?

It was a mini-C library written by me on the A5000 to get things just
"smash", the fileutils, etc going.

>     I think, NetBSD/arm32, Minix, RISCiX?)

Minix patches were available, and of course RISCiX.  NetBSD/arm32 was
in very early days (no console at least iirc).  I started the kernel
in early `94.

> (Yes, I know there's some story on Russell's site, but it seems apocryphal.)

Well, thanks a lot.  I've had to put up with a lot of arsey comments
over the past 6 years, and I certainly don't need people like you
trying to be offensive and down right rude to me, or trying to make
stuff I put on my site to be useful or interesting to be termed
"a work of fiction".

Why do you doubt it?  If you'd been at UKUUG Linux99, then you'd have
heard the full story, which starts off more or less with that.

Oh, and if you want to check up on the info on that page, you could
talk to either Martin Ebourne of !Zap fame, or Tim Chown, the
Electronics and Computer Science CS admin at Southampton University
(92 to at least 96).  Martin, however, has the most detailed
independent knowledge of the progress.

Oh, and please, don't write an apocryphal story about it, lest you
piss me off even more.  After all, there is only ONE person who can
really review such a story, and say "its accurate" isn't there?
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |        Russell King       [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |            http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/            /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |

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From: "Neil A. Carson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:51:04 -0700

> in very early days (no console at least iirc).  I started the kernel

I think at the same time you had stuff coming up on the A5K, NetBSD was
running kernel mode only on The RiscPC with a blob moving up and down
the screen to illustrate a process :)
Fun days :)

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From: Chris Rutter <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:38:58 +0100 (BST)

> >   - When did binutils and gcc start supporting ARM-based formats?

All you say is "At the start of 1995, GCC supported the ARM processors,
but binutils was lacking. [...] Binutils didn't have particularly
brilliant support for ARM - it didn't link the bl instruction properly."

I was really looking for something a bit more specific, like who
contributed this work to gcc and binutils, and for what purpose
originally.  I find it a bit unlikely that there would have been some
substantial amount of ARM support in these tools but that it was
heavily broken -- that doesn't make much sense!

> "smash", the fileutils, etc going.

I was more after where the ARM support in libc4 came from, or equally
where NetBSD got its ARM support in its C library.  (I'm not sure about
the code topology sharing between NetBSD 1.0 and Linux 1.1's C libraries.)

> in very early days (no console at least iirc).  I started the kernel

Right; are there any details on these Minix patches?

And NetBSD/arm32 was, it seemed to me, out there and running X and
friends a year or few before Linux/ARM -- am I imagining this?

> really review such a story, and say "its accurate" isn't there?

I didn't term that story `a work of fiction'.  I said it /seemed/
apocryphal, meaning `of questionable authenticity', where I take
`authenticity' to mean `undisputed credibility'.

Given that story is only your account, having been ratified by no one
else to my knowledge, and also that parts of it seem a little strange
(other kernel hackers have cast doubt upon the ability of any version
of Norcroft C to compile /any/ version of the kernel), it seemed fair
to say that its credibility is not unquestionable; anyone making an
accurate account of history to which many people must agree surely must
make this judgement of this source!

I'm not about to write an apocryphal story: that's why I'm being careful
about blindly accepting the facts you present on your site.  Obviously
I have no wish to `piss you off' without reason, but I certainly won't
stop at presenting what I believe the truth to be /purely/ because it
may irritate you.

I think your statement "there is only ONE person who can really
review such a story" is indicative of a minor attitude problem on your
part; you've won your kudos by being the first to contribute ARM
code to the Linux kernel -- don't now lose it by being a bad team
player.  (Yes, that's harsh, but it's my sincere opinion.)

c.

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From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:18:35 +0100 (BST)

> make this judgement of this source!

Ok, for those doubters of you out there, go to:

 <ftp://ftp.arm.linux.org.uk/pub/armlinux/Old/RISCOSKernel/>

and browse the SparkFS archives located there - full source to the 1.1.59+
kernel that can be compiled under RISC OS, as well as the boot loader for
that version.

If you still have doubts, I can upload the very first C library for ARM
Linux (also compiled in RISC OS), and the MicroEMACS source (again, compiled
under RISC OS).

I'll update the history webpage to point to this proof of fact.
   _____

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:17:29 +0100

In message <[email-masked]>, Chris R
utter writes:
>originally.

Both binutils and GCC had support for generic ARM in pre-Linux days.  You 
should be able to trace the history of these early contributions from the 
ChangeLog files in the respective packages.

>the code topology sharing between NetBSD 1.0 and Linux 1.1's C libraries.)

I don't believe there is much or any commonality there.  The Linux C library 
has always been derived from the GNU libc -- Linux libc4 was based on GNU libc 
1.x.  As far as I know NetBSD's libc is a completely independent effort.

p.