Subject: When will KDE / Gnome bins be available for Armlinux?

From: Eduard Pfarr <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:26:43 +0200

Hello,

I'm looking for a GUI for Armlinux. I want to work on Armlinux as user, not
as guru. :-)

When will we be able to run KDE or Gnome on Armlinux? Russell, would you
mind to put your beta (or such) Gnome compilations to the public? So that
users could get an idea of how to use it later, when it's stable? Would
people who have KDE partly running like to make their compilations to the
public?

 Cheers,
 Eduard.

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From: Eduard Pfarr <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:05:43 +0200

> people who have KDE partly running like to make their compilations to the

Well, I've to say it's a fight in order to get Linux going (on a RiscPC at
least, I don't know Netwinders personally yet). At least if one comes from
the luxury world of Windoze (Delphi!) and RISC OS (it's indeed called RISC
OS, not RiscOS or whatever <g>). We should improve and simplify the few
documents flowing around on Russell's server: How to install, how to get
going, how to compile real stuff like KDE etc. Some people @ Acorn read
this list: What do you think about Acorn installing Armlinux on the RiscPC-
I & II as standard next to RISC OS? It really should become as simple as on
the Wintel platform.

Anyway. So in order to be able to load ELF executables I've to compile the
kernel (thanks to Matthew for that info). I've downloaded ARM ELF binaries
which unfortunately are useless for my RiscPC because »Corel compile their
binaries for the StrongARM specifically, and as such they use the half-word
load and store instructions which the RiscPC's bus cannot handle« (thanks
to Russell for telling me). A pity, really! I suppose this means that ARM
bins of, say, CorelDraw or WordPerfect, which Corel maybe is going to port
one day, won't run on my Acorn's Armlinux? Oh dear...

Since there are so many gurus around in this list I hope it's still OK to
ask two simple questions:

1) Is there a guide for »non Linux gurus« how to get the KDE baby run on my
RiscPC with Armlinux?

2) Similar: Are there hints available how to get »nedit« run on Armlinux?

Thank you; have a good time.

 Cheers,
 Eduard.

---

From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:52:16 +0100 (BST)

> I & II as standard next to RISC OS? It really should become as simple as on

Unfortunately this is a luxury that we'll probably never have, particularly
because the main problems is lack of a partitioning standard.  There is no
one place that you can choose to put a partition table on a disk (and no place
defined) without trampling over someone's RISC OS (there you go) partition
table.

Hence, with most of the RISC OS tools, they have to detect the partitioning
scheme, which means for each and every scheme there is different code that
needs to be written.  Not only that, but the rules of allocating drive space
vary between manufacturers!

Handling this all in one application is a nightmare at best.  To give some
instances:

- Plain Filecore disks use the non-ADFS partition descriptor to point at the
  end of the disk, which then contains a partition table.
- PowerTec disks use the PowerTec partition table at sector 0.
- Eesox disks use the eesox partition table at sector 2 (I think).
- Cumana disks appear to use a linked list (which throws out the first method).

There really needs to be a *standard* partition table format located at a
*standard* place on the disk.

> one day, won't run on my Acorn's Armlinux? Oh dear...

I'll see if I can pursuade them, since it'll be a shame if we can't.  They
may of course want to charge for them.

> 1) Is there a guide for »non Linux gurus« how to get the KDE baby run on my

I've not been working on KDE (haven't even seen any src code for it), so I
can't help on this one.

> 2) Similar: Are there hints available how to get »nedit« run on Armlinux?

Likewise.  Have you tried to get it running, if so, what were the results?
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |        Russell King       [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |  http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html    /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |
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From: "Jonathan P. Olson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:27:01 -0700

>one day, won't run on my Acorn's Armlinux? Oh dear...

Hmmm... Shouldn't it be relatively easy to install an illegal instruction
handler that traps and emulates the undefined half-word instructions
on non-strongarms?  It would obviously be slow, but halfword stuff
tends to be somewhat uncommon in applications and this would fix
most of the incompatibility problems between strongarms and arm-3s.

--
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From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:57:39 +0100 (BST)

> most of the incompatibility problems between strongarms and arm-3s.

It won't work on the StrongARM on the RiscPC anyway.  The RiscPC databus
can't handle half-word instructions.
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |        Russell King       [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |  http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html    /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |
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From: "Neil A. Carson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:20:22 +0100

> most of the incompatibility problems between strongarms and arm-3s.

Try the speed of that when you run a graphical application that uses
16bpp Ximages or something like that :-)

Although it's pretty uncommon in most stuff, I'd guess for graphics the
reverse is true.

	Neil

-- 
Neil A. Carson

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From: "Neil A. Carson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 17:22:24 +0100

> can't handle half-word instructions.

I wonder, though, as the CPU isn't operating in enhanced mode whether
you'll get an exception of some sort anyway? Or will something just
bomb?

	Neil

-- 
Neil A. Carson

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From: Philip Blundell <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 18:50:06 +0100

>you'll get an exception of some sort anyway? Or will something just

I imagine (though I haven't tried it) that it will just quietly do the wrong 
thing.

p.

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From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 19:45:20 +0100 (BST)

> you'll get an exception of some sort anyway? Or will something just

The instruction just completes as normal.  The only problem is that
either the data hasn't been written, or more likely the data in the
other 16 bits is corrupted.
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |        Russell King       [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |  http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html    /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |

---

From: Eduard Pfarr <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:05:50 +0200

»Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>« schrieb in Artikel

> can't handle half-word instructions.

So even an exception handler (similar to FPE) can't handle this? Why? <g>

Do you or any other reader know if the RiscPC-II's (Phoebe) databus will be
able to handle half-word instructions?

 Cheers,
 Eduard.

---

From: Dave Gilbert <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 22:53:57 +0100 (BST)

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Eduard Pfarr wrote:

> Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]> schrieb in Artikel
> > 

Because the instruction is actually executed - the StrongARM doesn't know
the bus isn't upto it and thus doesn't cause any type of exception;
and blissfilly ignores the fact that it just wrote/read completely the
wrong data.

Dave
 --------------------------------------------------------------------   
/ Dr. David Alan Gilbert      | Running Linux on Alpha(LX) |  Happy  \ 
\   gro.gilbert @ treblig.org |   & ARM(EBSA285,old Arc)   |  In Hex /
 \____________________________|___ http://www.treblig.demon.co.uk __/

---

From: Eduard Pfarr <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:54:21 +0200

»Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>« schrieb in Artikel
<[email-masked]> folgendes:

Hallo,

[Linux installing as easy as on Wintel platforms?]

> Unfortunately this is a luxury that we'll probably never have,
> particularly because the main problems is lack of a partitioning
> standard. [..]
> instances: [..]

I see. Acorn isn't in the mood/position to change this problem?

> > bins of, say, CorelDraw or WordPerfect, which Corel maybe is going to
> > port one day, won't run on my Acorn's Armlinux? Oh dear...
> 
> I'll see if I can pursuade them, since it'll be a shame if we can't.

Indeed. Good luck. :-)

> They may of course want to charge for them.

For WordPerfect and CorelDraw? No problem.

> > 1) Is there a guide for »non Linux gurus« how to get the KDE baby run
> > on my RiscPC with Armlinux?
> 

A pity. Some engineers at Corel have compiled KDE successfully and pointed
to the binaries. Which don't run on my StrongARM RiscPC's Arm-Linux. :-(

> Likewise.  Have you tried to get it running, if so, what were the results?

Nedit relies on Motif/Lesstif. The problem is that I can't compile Lesstif.
In this mailing-list's archive I read about problems with it. Has anybody
successfully compiled Lesstif?
  In my case typing configure leads to: »Invalid configuration 'sa110-
unknown-linuxaout': machine 'sa110-unknown' not recognized«. If I do a
»configure --host=arm« it runs OK but then »make« won't go: Please see my
footer for a error list. Libtool is v1.2 btw and I've applied your arm-
patches named »autoconf-2/12-1/arm/rpm« and »automake-1/0-1/arm/rpm«.

A final question: Say there's unsaved work on the RISC OS side and then one
does double click the newest version of your !Linux application. Linux
starts without any warning. Am I missing a point or is this a bad thing
because the unsaved RISC OS work is lost? ;-)

 Cheers,
 Edaurd.

(*) Make complains as following:

  for subdir in lib clients include scripts doc; do		\
    target=`echo all-recursive | sed s/-recursive//`; \
    echo making $target in $subdir;	\
    (cd $subdir && make $target)	\
     || case "" in *k*) fail=yes;; *) exit 1;; esac; \
  done && test -z "$fail"
  making all in lib
  make[1]: Entering directory `/tmp/lesstif/lib'
  for subdir in config Xm Mrm Uil Xm-2.0 Mrm-2.0 Uil-2.0 Xm-2.1 Mrm-2.1 Xm-
CDE Mrm-CDE ; do \
    target=`echo all-recursive | sed s/-recursive//`; \
    echo making $target in $subdir;	\
    (cd $subdir && make $target)	\
     || case "-w" in *k*) fail=yes;; *) exit 1;; esac; \
  done && test -z "$fail"
  making all in config
  make[2]: Entering directory `/tmp/lesstif/lib/config'
  make[2]: Nothing to be done for `all'.
  make[2]: Leaving directory `/tmp/lesstif/lib/config'
  making all in Xm
  make[2]: Entering directory `/tmp/lesstif/lib/Xm'
  Makefile:165: *** missing sparator.  Stop.
  make[2]: Leaving directory `/tmp/lesstif/lib/Xm'
  make[1]: Leaving directory `/tmp/lesstif/lib'
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From: Matthew Wilcox <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 15:17:28 +0200

> successfully compiled Lesstif?

Don't bother even trying until you have an ELF-based system.

> patches named »autoconf-2/12-1/arm/rpm« and »automake-1/0-1/arm/rpm«.

Your fault.  ./configure --host=arm-linuxaout would get you further.  But
even then, you're going to hit the same problems that everyone else has had.

> because the unsaved RISC OS work is lost? ;-)

I have code to do a shutdown properly that I wrote once upon a time for a
booter for a different OS.  I'll try to dig this out & send it to Russell.

-- 
Matthew Wilcox <[email-masked]>
"I decry the current tendency to seek patents on algorithms.  There are
better ways to earn a living than to prevent other people from making use of
one's contributions to computer science."  -- Donald E. Knuth, TAoCP vol 3
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From: Eduard Pfarr <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:05:32 +0200

»Matthew Wilcox <[email-masked]>« schrieb in Artikel
<[email-masked]> folgendes:

> > Nedit relies on Motif/Lesstif. The problem is that I can't compile
> > Lesstif. In this mailing-list's archive I read about problems with it.
> > Has anybody successfully compiled Lesstif?
> 

What is an ELF-based system? I've recompiled my kernel to inlcude ELF-
support. Still I've got a feeling that this isn't what you mean.

> Your fault.

Well, yes, mine, since nobody else is trying to run Linux here... :-)

> ./configure --host=arm-linuxaout would get you further.
> But even then, you're going to hit the same problems that everyone else
> has had.

 .. which are?

[..]
> booter for a different OS.  I'll try to dig this out & send it to Russell.

This is a good idea. Thank you.

 Cheers,
 Eduard.

---

From: David Alan Gilbert <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:40:39 +0100

> support. Still I've got a feeling that this isn't what you mean.

Thats only half the battle; Now that you have a kernel which can load 
ELF binaries you need to get a compiler/binutils/libraries which produce
ELF binaries. Those together with the ELF supporting kernel could be
called an 'ELF-based system'.
Those tools are coming together and if your confident you could
get them all and give them a go.

> Well, yes, mine, since nobody else is trying to run Linux here... :-)

Hmm - we'll help you if you promise to try and convert everyone else
to the one true OS - fair :-) ?

Dave

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From: Stefan Hanske <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:22:06 +0200 (METDST)

> support. Still I've got a feeling that this isn't what you mean.

ELF is a new binary format that allows easy creation of shared libraries
and introduces position independent code to ARMLinux. You need a compiler
that supports ELF and have to recompile the binaries to take advantage of
it. 

> > But even then, you're going to hit the same problems that everyone else

Lesstif compiled fine, but every application gave a strange error message
like this one:

'Trying to add non-widget child SiteDropManager to parent xxx which only
supports widgets.'

----------------------------------------------------------
|mailto: Stefan Hanske ([email-masked] |
|WWW : http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~shanske      |
|phone: I'm not silly                                    |
|--------------------------------------------------------|
| And don't forget to remember what you remembered not   |
| to forget to remember...				 |
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From: Eduard Pfarr <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:39:01 +0200

»David Alan Gilbert <[email-masked]>« schrieb in Artikel

> get them all and give them a go.

I see.

Still: The Netwinder developers have got an ELF system for their Armlinux.
How does it come they've got all this running (also KDE) but Acorn Armlinux
doesn't? I mean if they've got an ELF GCC, libs etc. why does this stuff to
be re-invented for Acorn Armlinux? Well, naturally I see: Acorn Armlinux is
done freely by motivated people like Russell King and some more, while the
Netwinder is commercial. It was Acorn's task to support Armlinux, IMHO.

> to the one true OS - fair :-) ?

Absolutely. :-)

Basically it's not too difficult to make typical Windoze developers (like
me) to try out another OS - usually Linux. However they want to work, they
don't want to become Linux/Unix gurus. They're used to have a comfortable
GUI and tools and applications within that GUI etc. What's concerning this,
Linux has to be _much_ improved and use standards in order to become »the
one true OS«. So I need KDE which I'm told to meet my wishes. ;-)

 Cheers,
 Eduard.

---

From: Mark Koek <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:37:52 +0200

Eduard Pfarr wrote:
[snip]
> Netwinder is commercial.
[snip]

Isn't Linux released under the GPL? I thought this meant that any
modifications have to be made freely available too?
GCC certainly is released under the GPL.

I think that if the kernel sources were used as a basis by Netwinder
developers, all these extensions you're talking about should be made
public too.

Where's the mistake here?

Mark Koek

---

From: Eduard Pfarr <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:49:23 +0200

»Mark Koek <[email-masked]>« schrieb in Artikel
<[email-masked]> folgendes:

Hallo to Holland,

[..]
> modifications have to be made freely available too?

I think so.

> developers, all these extensions you're talking about should be made

Maybe they are?

Maybe some kind Corel Computer developers who run KDE in ELF format on
their Netwinder's ARM Linux could help these questions? Or Russell King
who helped them porting ARM Linux to their Netwinder? Thank you. :-)

> Where's the mistake here?

I don't know, unfortunately. But still I can hardly wait to see real GUI
stuff (KDE etc) run on my Acorn's ARM Linux (am I repeating here?).. ;-)

 Cheers,
 Eduard.

---

From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:26:28 +0100 (BST)

> GCC certainly is released under the GPL.

It is.  Modifications do not have to be freely available if the public
never see the binaries.

Basically, the GPL allows you to modify the software for your own needs.
You may choose to make the software available to others, but if you do,
there must be source code available by some means/method.

Currently, the gnome stuff that I have been working on is not much more
than compilation attempts.  Since I have not made any binaries available,
there is no obligation for me to release any changes I've made to it.
Generally though, gnome compiles cleanly on the Netwinder (if you get
the right versions of everything).  There is one stumbling block with
structure alignment and the configure scripts to take care of though.
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |        Russell King       [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |  http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html    /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |
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From: Scott Bambrough <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:55:17 -0400

> developers, all these extensions you're talking about should be made

Before this goes to far, I would like to point out that everything Corel
Computer 
has done to the kernel, glibc, gcc, binutils and gdb has been made publically 
available on netwinder.org.  The same goes for our changes to other software
released
under the GPL.  All relevant changes have been passed back to Russell and Phil
for 
inclusion in the mainstream software trees.

We made a decision several months ago that if we were to have a system
comparable to 
Linux on an Intel platform we would need ELF.  To that end Pat Beirne and I
worked with
Russell King, Phil Blundell, and Lee Smith to move ELF forward on ArmLinux.  The
results
of our work is freely available now.

I would also like to point out that KDE was ported to the NetWinder by Jon
Olson, and 
Raffaele Sena, neither of whom is a Corel Computer employee.  Kudos are due to
dedicated,
hardworking people like them, Russell and Phil who work on ArmLinux in their
spare time.

Building an ArmLinux ELF system from scratch requires a kernel that can run ELF
executables,
a compiler and binutils that can generate ELF executables, plus a great deal of
fortitude
and patience for compiling, and testing newly built ELF executables.  ELF isn't
really the
biggest hangup for porting, it is usually the change from libc4/libc5 to glibc
that causes 
the biggest problems with C programs.  With C++ programs the worst problem is
the rapidly
changing libstdc++ and glibc source trees.  A smaller problem is the compiler's
support for
the more complex C++ language mechanisms (templates, rtti).  Jon Olson reported
several
problems he encountered when porting KDE.  

There are a couple of sources of ported software (ie ported to ELF/glibc)
besides Russell's
site.  Andrew Mileski and Zac Sprackett continue on porting the Redhat 5.1 RPM's
to build on 
the NetWinder.  These are available on netwinder.org.  These should be easily
converted for 
running on ArmLinux on an Acorn (just ensure that they are compiled for
appropriate cpu and
architechure).  The Debian guys have a port in the works of the Debian
distribution to run 
on the NetWinder.  It would not be a stretch to change the architechure/cpu and
get it to 
build to run on ArmLinux on an Acorn.

Scott Bambrough
Corel Computer Corporation
[email-masked]
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