Subject: Why Linux ARM

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:13:06 +0100

Hi, 

This isn't flame bait ! I love linux, and applaud Corel for its 
far sightedness, and maybe for its courage :)

But, Intel hardware is just so cheap now, why would I buy
a Corel Workstation at 800 pounds, when I can get a
PII 266   for    200 
M/Board for    120
128Meg Ram   128
Ethernet Card  50
Soundcard        50
Box                   50
Graphics TNT  180
6meg Disk       170

so for 948 do I get a machine that smokes the Corel , looks
like ?

Am I missing the point ? Is Java going to give me something
Win32 can't ?

I'd love to be a hacker like you guys and being doing it
"because I can"

I just don't see the point ?

The idea of Linux+Smart Hardware is attractive, but 
the hardware has to be either a) cheaper than Intel
or b) faster than Intel

Is strongarm faster than PII ? going to be faster than PII ?

Just lots of questions, but I just don't get it.

I'd be glad to chat offline from the list if this isn't the correct 
forum.

Cheers
Steve.

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From: Phil Norman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:54:08 +0100 (BST)

> Am I missing the point ? Is Java going to give me something

If you'd just bought a high-spec PC you'd cripple it with Win32.  Now if
you were going to be installing linux on it, then I'd understand.

-- 
Rule of programming #1: Everything that can go wrong will go wrong,
        except when you're running the debugger.

Phil Norman, mailing from Oregan Networks.
email:	[email-masked]
URL:	http://newton.ex.ac.uk/general/ug/norman

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From: "Neil A. Carson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 22:12:50 +0100

> a Corel Workstation at 800 pounds, when I can get a

First f all, are they really 800 quid? I didn't think so... I thought
they were substantially less than this. Maybe onlpy in quantity, I dunno
really.

> M/Board for    120

Make that 30% less.

> Ethernet Card  50

Make that 25.

> Soundcard        50

Make that 20.

> Box                   50

Make that 30.

> Graphics TNT  180

Make that 20% less.

> 6meg Disk       170

Make that 140.

> so for 948 do I get a machine that smokes the Corel , looks

Yes, but it's for a different usage. For example, ti doesn't fit as
nicelyt on a desk as a Corel system, doesn't provide the
telephone/capture stuff, and doesn't fit as nicely into a networked
environment. It also is bigger, uses more power, and is more expensive
to deploy in large numbers.

> Am I missing the point ? Is Java going to give me something

Yes, it is a network computer, not a PC.

> the hardware has to be either a) cheaper than Intel

If you want _just_a_linux_box_ and you aren't interested in the
architecture from a technical standpoint, get a PC.

> Is strongarm faster than PII ? going to be faster than PII ?

No for first part, and can't comment for second.

Sorry, maybe I shouldn't copy this back.

-- 
Neil A. Carson

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From: "Andrew E. Mileski" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 22:30:49 -0400

> so for 948 do I get a machine that smokes the Corel , looks

What's a pound worth these days in U.S. dollars?
The basic NetWinder DM goes for $699 U.S.

Also remember that there is a big savings in electricity,
cooling, and maintenance costs [not to mention desk space].

> Am I missing the point ? Is Java going to give me something

The NetWinder JC is not yet available, only the NetWinder DM.

> I just don't see the point ?

Then don't buy one :)  Personally, I'd buy one or more
myself, as they are really powerful boxes for their size
and cost.

I liked the NetWinder so much, I joined the company!

--
Andrew E. Mileski          mailto:[email-masked]
Software Developer
Corel Computer Corp.       http://www.CorelComputer.com/
OSC-CCC Technical Liaison  http://www.NetWinder.org/
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From: Rasmus Lerdorf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:28:01 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

> cooling, and maintenance costs [not to mention desk space].

To me, the fact that it is cheap, draws less than 20 amps and is quiet is
the main attraction.  I might be able to buy a laptop that is about the
same size and stick Linux or FreeBSD on it, but I don't think I could get
a laptop with the same price/power ratio.  And besides, the NetWinder is
just so much cooler.

By the way, I sure hope it is quiet.  Could someone confirm this for me?
No whiny fans or noisy hard drives, right?

-Rasmus

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From: Alex deVries <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 02:03:09 -0400 (EDT)

> the main attraction.  I might be able to buy a laptop that is about the

The fact that the Netwinder draws less than 20 amps isn't an attraction at
all.  My refridgerator uses less.  What's more significant is that it uses
less than 20 milliamps.

- Alex

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From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:06:27 +0100 (BST)

> all.  My refridgerator uses less.  What's more significant is that it uses

When you compare this with a PC (at work, we've had to measure the power
consumption of our PCs in a system we manufacturer to size a custom UPS)
of spec:

16MB RAM, 486DX4 100MHz, *No* hard disk, Flash/SRAM solid state card,
16 RS422 serial ports running at 38400 baud (and 10 in use), Video card
(Trident), Arcom PCSYSCON card.  No monitor connected.

which took over 4Amps 60 degrees out of phase with the power supply (I
think that the phase figure is correct), then this works out at around
480W in phase with the supply (yes, that's just an estimation).  The
powersupply got hot as well, and you could feel a nice breeze of warm
air blowing out the back.  (Oh, and I can quote quite a lot of horror
stories about fan failures on our normal PCs as well).

Although I don't have any figures for my ARM based machines here, I can
definitely say that they use a lot less power.  The only way that I can
say this is for the following fact:

1) EBSA-285 (with 3com 3c592 and S3 Trio64 added): the PSU has a
   temperature controlled PSU, and the fan is always running slowly.

2) EBSA-110: When the original PSU fan started being noisy (I hate noisy
   fans), I got a replacement from DEC, which at first reconnected to
   the +12V line in the PSU.  However, I thought why should I when
   the EBSA-110 takes no more than about 7W?  Now, it's connected to
   the +5V line and the PSU is still cool.  PLUS, DEC had to put a
   resistor on the PSU +12V line to keep the PSU in spec *because*
   the EBSA-110 takes so little power.

I haven't got the Netwinder figures here, but I bet that it's at least
an order of magnitude below a PC.

Hence, the argument should no longer be one of:

'A PC costs to buy 900ukp, but a RiscPC costs 1500ukp'

but more of:

'A PC costs xxx ukp to run each week, but a RiscPC costs yy ukp'.

Then you start to see where the real cost savings are with ARM technology.
Incidentally, the other advantage is that because it's not drawing a
lot of power, it's not getting hot, therefore:
 - electronic components are more reliable.
 - less need for mechanical fans which:
   - clog up with dust.
   - fail due to bearing wear.
   - clog up your floppy drive with dust.
   - when they fail normally take out the processor as well.

If someone wishes to dispute this, then I'll happily collect all the
figures together to prove it when I'm next at work.
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |        Russell King       [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |  http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html    /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |

Buy a mobile for 1ukp and pay 100ukp per month line rental, or
buy a mobile for 100ukp and pay 1ukp per month line rental.  Which
would you prefer?  I know which one I'd like.
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From: Dave Gilbert <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:22:22 +0100 (BST)

Hi,
  I think there are two or three questions which interact:

    1) Why a special box
    2) Why ARM
    3) Why Linux

1) Is why don't we just use a PC? Well its big, it eats power,
   and can be a pain to configure (even with Linux).

   Personally I wouldn't want a Netwinder as my main machine (sorry
   guys) - I'm just too much of a computational speed freak (this comes
   to you from the keyboard of a 533MHz Alpha).  At the same time there
   is no way I'd want to leave my Alpha on all day cooking away (I've
   just had to add extra fans!!).  And I don't like switching my alpha
   on in the evening just for 15 mins to read mail.

   Why would I want to leave my machine on all day? Well when ADSL/
   Cable modems/Internet over power lines come out I'd like to leave
   a machine running a web server/ftp server/maintaining my domain
   routing mail etc.

   Also with a special box you can put everything you want in the box
   and KNOW that everything works together. And Corel have put everything
   in; fast ether, video in and out - what else does a man need?

2) Why ARM?
   Well its low power, which means no/low fans - it means I wouldn't mind
   leaving it on. It means that rather than the screach of 4 fans next
   to me I could here my CD player.

   Its also easy for designers to build around; DEC are (were?) really
   helpful guys and they'd jump backwards to help you use a StrongARM
   and putting a StrongARM together with a PCI interface (FootBridge)
   should probably be easy.

   Its also >>cheap<< - ARMs don't cost much.

3) Why Linux?

   OK, so you've got this box with a pretty fast procesor, every PCI
   device mortal man could want and now you need an OS. Hmm...
   Well you can't get Windows for ARM, (you can get CE but that just
   about is useful in your pocket) - thank god for that!
   You could write your own OS, but then there is >NO software< for it.
   Thats an approach which works OK if you just want an X/windows
   terminal.

   But buy using Linux you get a box which can work as an X/windows
   terminal with low effort, but which after the initial effort means
   that you can get so much more.  It suddenly becomes a perfect box
   to run as a firewall, an office server, a web server, an internet
   light server etc.

   So Linux gets you some extra facilities with no extra work after
   getting the port working. Oh - and its free.

So with fast home net connections, this is the perfect thing which
you can just wonder upto read your mail, leave it on and not worry
about it.  Or it can just run your planet for you.

Dave

 --------------------------------------------------------------------
/ Dr. David Alan Gilbert      | Running Linux on Alpha & ARM         \ 
\   gro.gilbert @ treblig.org | ------- Happy in hex -------         /
 \____________________________|___ http://www.treblig.demon.co.uk __/