Subject: The Wakefield Experience

From: Matthew Wilcox <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:37:11 +0100 (BST)

Here's my report from the Wakefield show.

I should start by thanking Chris Hughes and the Wakefield User Group for
giving me free space on their stand.  I'd also like to thank Causality for
the use of their netlink.  I had a really good time & spoke to probably
over a hundred people; mainly about Linux.  I'll summarise some of the
points that were made to me below:

 * 2 people requested that a driver be written for the Morley card.

 * One person requested that the installation guide be annotated with
   explanations of what each step does.  Does anyone fancy doing this?

 * Quite a lot of people commented that they would like to try linux
   without having to reformat their hard disc.  Does anyone volunteer
   to attempt to resurrect the old partition file support.

 * A lot of people have got to various steps in the installation, and
   then got stuck.  This may mean the installation guide isn't clear
   enough or it might be that their hardware isn't supported.  It's
   extremely difficult to tell from the vague reports I got!

 * A lot of people were interested in generally finding out more about
   Linux or Unix in general.  I pointed them in the direction of various
   O'Reilly books because I happened to have `Linux Device Drivers' with
   me.  `Linux in a Nutshell', `Running Linux' and `Learning the Unix
   Operating System' were the ones I pointed out.

 * The mailing list often confuses some people and some of the more
   technical postings do put people off.  The obvious step is to split
   the mailing list into two - one for technical discussions and one for
   user discussion.  I propose redesignating the [email-masked]
   list for users.  If this is unacceptable then I may have an alternate
   solution in the next couple of weeks.

 * A lot of people don't want to download the distribution over a modem;
   understandably.  Those with the August 97 Clan disc, I've pointed to
   Phil Norman's installation guide but there are still a significant
   number of people without any access to it at all.  I think I could have
   sold 10 to 15 CDs at the show, and there's certainly a market for it.
   We could probably get free adv^W^Wa news item in the various Acorn
   magazines for those without any Internet access at all.

   Hmm, something I've just thought of, how about putting Russell forward
   for the Regan interview?  (Back page of Acorn User)

 * Paul from IMS came up to me to talk about the Peanut (their new
   portable).  He reckons if we can get ARMLinux to work on the A7000
   (or was it the 7000+?) then it should also work on the Peanut.
   Anyone know how hard it would be to port to the A7000?

 * John from Castle Technology came to the stand to ask how he'd go about
   writing a driver for his card.  I'll be helping him get set up.

 * Simtec have loaned us an IDE interface to write a driver for.  This
   won't happen soon due to exams, but will probably be done by the end
   of June.

 * Cumana were more than happy to talk to us about a driver for their
   CD-ROM drive that some RiscPC's are fitted with - the one with the
   strange daughter card.  They were also ecstatically surprised that
   Russell has already released support for their card.  A welcome and
   enjoyable change in attitude.

 * A lot of people were asking if we are going to support Phoebe and I
   had an interesting little chat with someone from Acorn about multiple
   processor support in the Phoebe.  Which, incidentally, has a loathesome
   colour scheme!  I told the Archive webmaster `It sounds like fun.
   I'm sure someone will do it.'  Acorn were apparently suggesting to
   people that they should be talking to us about multiprocessor support -
   not about RISC OS!

 * People liked the RISC OS style fvwm2 customisations - thanks to Piers
   Wombwell for creating them.  I'll try and make them available once
   I have a couple of details sorted out with Acorn.

 * The light at the end of the PowerROM tunnel appears to have been turned
   on.  Alsystems are sick of getting complaints from their Linux & BSD
   using customers about this and have come up with a way to do this.
   This is the subject of my next email.

 * A section on the website to describe `what I can use it for' that will
   appeal to the average RISC OS user.  Yes, I was plugging the Corel
   announcement heavily ;-)  Again, Russell doesn't need to do this;
   would someone like to take this on?

As you can see, I've been talking myself hoarse this weekend.  It's
definitely not good to do this by yourself; there were a number of
people who wandered off while I was talking to someone else, so respect
to Russell for doing it alone at shows for so long.  It was a lot of
fun doing it though and if all goes well, I hope to be helping Russell
at Acorn World 1998.

I'd like to thank Ben Dooks (who also helped me lug stuff from my room
in York to Wakefield and back) and everyone else who `minded the stall
for 5 minutes' while I attended to business elsewhere.  And thanks to
everyone who turned up and talked to me; it would have been lonely without
you!

-- 
Set Alias$Case Set Alias$[ |||| |MSet Alias$Otherwise Set Alias$[ \ Matthew
"" |MSet Alias$When If %0=%%0 Then Set Alias$[ "" ||MIf %0=%%0    \ Wilcox
Then Set Alias$Otherwise Set Alias$[ |||||||||||||||| ||MIf       \
%0=%%0 Then Set Alias$When Set Alias$[ ||||||||||||||||
unsubscribe: body of `unsubscribe linux-arm' to [email-masked]

---

From: David <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:43:02 +0100 (BST)

>    Anyone know how hard it would be to port to the A7000?

Fairly fiddly, I should think.  I did enquire on this list about this a
while ago, and was told that it was unlikely to happen. I have an A7000+
now running NetBSD, although it didn't work first time.  There are, as I
understand, two main issues. Firstly, memory: last I heard ARMLinux does
not support RiscPC style machines without any VRAM.  Secondly, there are
minor differences (which initially prevented NetBSD from booting) in the
hardware (IOMD device numbers and so on), not to mention the fact that the
mouse and keyboard are PS2. 

I have been considering trying to get linux running, but it's going to
have to wait until after finals, and until I get a second HD.

David.

PS - What's a peanut when it's in town?  And will it run NetBSD?

---

From: Matthew Wilcox <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:56:14 +0100 (BST)

David
> mouse and keyboard are PS2. 

Right.  It would probably be pointless to try to get this going based
on the current console code since there is new universal framebuffer
code for all machines that Russell is playing with (see
http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/general/today.html for details).

> have to wait until after finals, and until I get a second HD.

That would be great.  If you have a second machine, then you can use a
serial console while you try to get the video sorted out.

> PS - What's a peanut when it's in town?  And will it run NetBSD?

As I said above, it's a portable from IMS.  It runs RISC OS, but they'd
like it to run other OSes too.  It's very very similar to an A7000 (or
was it a +?  I can't remember).

---

From: "Neil A. Carson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 1990 00:34:18 +0100

> points that were made to me below:

I guess I then ought to thank Andy/Ian/Argo for our net link. Lassooing
that huge cable 18ft over a 20ft high stand sure was fun, apart from the
poor people underneath :)

	Neil

---

From: "Neil A. Carson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 May 1990 16:31:43 +0100

Hi,

The structure of the Peanut is in fact very similar to the A7000+.
Basically all that would need to be done to get something running on
that (if it already works on A7k+) is to make it work with an LCD
screen. As far as I know this involves about two lines of code required
to twiddle something in the VIDC.

I think David you are the only user of any kind of unix on an A7000+,
apart from one machine inside Acorn :)

	Neil

---

From: David <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:40:35 +0100 (BST)

> http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/general/today.html for details).

Fair enough - it probably won't get started until July at the earliest
anyway.

> serial console while you try to get the video sorted out.

I'll look into it over the summer - it may take a while though, because
I'll have to cross-compile from NetBSD, which means building a
cross-compiler and binutils first.  Also, it'll have to wait until I've
got my ZIP drive working under NetBSD (so that I can free up some HD
space.)

> was it a +?  I can't remember).

Presumably, it'll run NetBSD/arm32 then?  (It's very stable on my machine
at the mo...)

David.

---

From: David <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:43:34 +0100 (BST)

> to twiddle something in the VIDC.

So presumably, two lines are required to get NetBSD working on it? 

> apart from one machine inside Acorn :)

I'm gradually getting used to that idea :-)

David.

---

From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:59:13 +0100 (BST)

> > not support RiscPC style machines without any VRAM.  Secondly, there are

But that's not to say that someone can't put it in at some point (not yet though).

> > mouse and keyboard are PS2. 

This could be easy to get round - it depends on the exact differences.

> ... code for all machines that Russell is playing with (see

I'm glad to see that someone reads it ;)
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |        Russell King       [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |  http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html    /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |

---

From: Russell King - ARM Linux Admin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:03:34 +0100 (BST)

>    solution in the next couple of weeks.

Ok, I asked about this before.  I was thinking about having a

linux-arm-announce

list for info about patches etc that would be limited posting (ie, moderated).
However, it seems maybe we need:

linux-arm		- for general discussion for users
linux-arm-tech		- for technical discussions
linux-arm-announce	- for announcements (moderated).

These are the names I would prefer, otherwise it's a bit unclear, especially
with [email-masked].

There is one advantage to keeping the mailing lists on vger - I know that
Dave Miller mirrors the mailing lists internally to transmeta.com...
   _____
  |_____| ------------------------------------------------- ---+---+-
  |   |        Russell King       [email-masked]      --- ---
  | | | |  http://www.arm.uk.linux.org/~rmk/armlinux.html    /  /  |
  | +-+-+                                                     --- -+-
  /   |               THE developer of ARM Linux              |+| /|\
 /  | | |                                                     ---  |
    +-+-+ -------------------------------------------------  /\\\  |

---

From: Matthew Wilcox <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:40:55 +0100 (BST)

Russell King - ARM Linux Admin
> with [email-masked].

I would prefer linux-arm for technical discussion and linux-arm-users
for more general discussion.  I think this might well fit better with
the other uses of linux-<arch>, which are for techy discussions, afaik.

> Dave Miller mirrors the mailing lists internally to transmeta.com...

interesting.. ;-)  Though I don't think anyone at transmeta is terribly
interested in how well the arm linux installer works.  It might be better
to keep it in this country since most of our users are in the UK (afaik
anyway).

---

From: Philip Blundell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:04:00 +0100

>linux-arm-announce	- for announcements (moderated).

I think that would be overkill.  If people want a list for nontechnical 
discussion and announcements then that would be fine, but I think linux-arm 
should continue to be the list for technical discussion on the ARM port as it 
was originally intended.  I'm still not totally convinced an announcements 
list is merited - people who are interested will probably be reading either 
one of the two other putative lists or cola anyway - but as I said before I 
wouldn't stand in your way if you wanted to create one.

>with [email-masked].

Why not just let the tardis list die?  Nobody uses it as far as I can see.  If 
you take it out of MAINTAINERS then we don't need to worry about it.

>Dave Miller mirrors the mailing lists internally to transmeta.com...

Are you planning a move to Transmeta then?

p.

---

From: Dave Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:47:34 +0100

> Here's my report from the Wakefield show.

[snip]

>    user discussion.  I propose redesignating the
>    [email-masked] list for users.  If this is unacceptable
>    then I may have an alternate solution in the next couple of weeks.

Yes I was one of the people that spoke with you at the show and would like
to give Linux a try, but find that this mailing list is far too technical.
Perhaps others are also put off by it?

>    number of people without any access to it at all.  I think I could 
>    have sold 10 to 15 CDs at the show, and there's certainly a market
>    for it. We could probably get free adv^W^Wa news item in the various
>    Acorn magazines for those without any Internet access at all.

I am quite prepared to reformat/partition my hard drive in order to try
Linux out but even after reading the Linux website I am really none the
wiser as to what I require for my machine, why I need it or what it does, 
and there appears to be so many different versions of things, also many
differnet ways of installing it it seems.

I appreciate that the OS is constntly being updated/improved but for those
dipping their toe in the water there needs to be a better way of
explaining what is required for what hardware, what/where is the latest
stable version for people to download and what devices etc this will
support.

Dave

-- 
 - Roy 'Chubby' BROWN is at - http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/dge/rcb.html -
|                                                                          |

---

From: Jan Magnussen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:05:42 +0200

> differnet ways of installing it it seems.

Hmm. I posted a way (one of many) how exactly to install Linux onto an IDE
harddisk including all the Linux commands used and including two scripts
used for linking all the RPMs from the ADFS formatted hda1 to the ext2
formatted hda3 partition. If people are interested, then i could post it
again. This guide however assumes, that you have already reformatted and
repartitioned your harddisk with the proper Linux partitions.

Regards,

Jan Magnussen
http://www.kom.auc.dk/~janm
Fidonet : 2:234/181.8

---

From: Alex Holden <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:54:58 -0700

> Perhaps others are also put off by it?

I don't think there is a problem with the list as it is; it's not
exactly high traffic, is it? I get an average of about two mails a day
from it. On another list I am on, I get more than a hundred a day. I
went on the kernel list for about a fortnight but I had to unsubscribe
because I pay my own phone bills and it was taking forever to download
my mail every night, there was so much traffic. If you split it up,
there would be so little traffic on the list that it might just die out
altogether.
If you don't understand something because it is too technical for you,
can't you just ignore it? It takes less than a second to hit the delete
key, so two seconds a day can't be much to ask.

I can't help with any of the rest, as I don't have an Acorn myself. I'm
just here because I fancy the idea of building an embedded ARM system
running Linux one day. If I can get anyone to sell me a processor that
is- everyone I have asked either will not sell to private individuals or
want you to buy a minimum of about 25.

-- 
--------------- Linux- the choice of a GNU generation. --------------
: Alex Holden (M1CJD)- Caver, Programmer, Land Rover nut, Radio Ham :

---

From: Dave Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:36:24 +0100

On 21 May, Jan Magnussen <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Hmm. I posted a way (one of many) how exactly to install Linux onto an
> IDE harddisk including all the Linux commands used and including two
> scripts used for linking all the RPMs from the ADFS formatted hda1 to
> the ext2 formatted hda3 partition. If people are interested, then i
> could post it again. This guide however assumes, that you have already
> reformatted and repartitioned your harddisk with the proper Linux
> partitions.

> Jan Magnussen

Yes please, I would be very grateful as long as it is idiot level, I think
that I am going to need it ;)

Thanks

Dave

---

From: "Neil A. Carson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:42:18 +0100

> want you to buy a minimum of about 25.

There was a discussin that went down on comp.sys.arm recently about
availability, and a firm was mentioned that would do this. You could try
trawling back in the last month with DejaNews.

---

From: Matthew Wilcox <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:17:49 +0100 (BST)

Dave Edwards
> that I am going to need it ;)

Just to remind people that there are mailing list archives available and
listed on the web page.  Mine are in standard unix mailbox format, and
are available from ftp.barnet.ac.uk/pub/Acorn/armlinux/mail/, arranged
by month.  Some of the other sites allow you to search by author,
or whatever.

---

From: Tom Palmer <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:19:01 +0100 (BST)

> by month.  Some of the other sites allow you to search by author,

  Yes the mailbox files are there.  The only problem is the permissions on some them make it impossible to download them.  Could you chmod 644 them all so that they can be downloaded from the ftp site?
  
  Cheers,
  
  Tom
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
  Tom Palmer,
  Webmaster, The Netherhall School,
  Cambridge, United Kingdom
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Matthew Wilcox <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:50:14 +0100 (BST)

Tom Palmer
>   Yes the mailbox files are there.  The only problem is the permissions
> on some them make it impossible to download them.  Could you chmod 644
> them all so that they can be downloaded from the ftp site?

Fixed.  Please wrap your lines at less than 77 columns in future.  Thanks.